Feb 09, 2010, 01:36 PM // 13:36
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#141
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Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
Location: East Anglia, UK
Guild: Order of [Thay]
Profession: N/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard
Playing a proper monk is likely a lot more fun, challenging and honorable than playing with some ER crap.
What a boring bunch of wikifarmers you've all become.
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There you go, you've gone and done it again. I do not do speed clears, I do not farm. The only difference is I have a set idea in my head on how to make a successful run in, let's say UW, and I will find players willing to run these builds.
I would have joined your team, but would have criticised everyone's build and tweaked things here and there. I am rather paranoid.
If I were in your guild, you would kick me for the same reason as these others. It's not just about efficiency either; it's about finishing. Who looks for a party to simply die soon into the game?
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Feb 09, 2010, 03:57 PM // 15:57
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#142
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Furnace Stoker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion
I've noticed it seems more to be the adults who play and either think they're awesome OR think that because they're wise and have been playing for a long time, they are never wrong when it comes to a game.
I actually got kicked from a guild because I wanted to bring my ER ele on a vanquish with this guild; and they were stubborn enough not to change one of the two monks. It was incredible...
The "children" know they're stupid, and will take as much advice as they can get, usually. That's what I did way back.
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It doesn't matter whether they are adults or children. Everybody has to start somewhere and learn by experimenting rather than cover it up with cons. If you disagree with them, fine, just put it to the test.
You would find that most parts of PvE is simple enough that you really dont need the most optimal build to succeed and as long as people have fun, even with their own builds, it really doesn't matter. Even if they have made a mistake by picking the wrong build, it is fun while it lasted and they would realize that they should have listened to you, later.
Quote:
It's not just about efficiency either; it's about finishing. Who looks for a party to simply die soon into the game?
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When I PUG, I am always prepared to "die soon into the game". If I am not prepared to do that, then I wouldn't PUG in the first place, I would call my guild/alliance or use my heroes.
I find failing can be fun, when I have the time to PUG. And people usually learn a thing or two from the experience.
Last edited by Daesu; Feb 09, 2010 at 04:07 PM // 16:07..
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Feb 09, 2010, 06:17 PM // 18:17
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#143
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Dec 2005
Guild: Super Fans Of Gaile [ban]
Profession: W/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion
I actually got kicked from a guild because I wanted to bring my ER ele on a vanquish with this guild; and they were stubborn enough not to change one of the two monks. It was incredible...
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It is incredible that you expect 7 people to revolve around you, then feel wronged when they kick you.
While it is a PuG, it is not your PuG, you are asking to join 7 other players. I know that when I ask people to join I definitely expect and demand them to adjust according to my whims.
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Feb 09, 2010, 06:39 PM // 18:39
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#144
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Guild: [Thay]
Profession: R/Mo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Dr
It is incredible that you expect 7 people to revolve around you, then feel wronged when they kick you.
While it is a PuG, it is not your PuG, you are asking to join 7 other players. I know that when I ask people to join I definitely expect and demand them to adjust according to my whims.
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But it shouldn't be. If a team build makes sense then there are PUGs that are willing to team play and utilize those builds. More mature, open-minded people are willing to compromise but it is still in bad taste to kick someone without trying to fit them in.
After all this is a PUG. If you really wanted max efficiency, they would do it with people they know/guildies/allies.
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Feb 09, 2010, 07:20 PM // 19:20
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#145
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Dec 2005
Guild: Super Fans Of Gaile [ban]
Profession: W/
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Its worse form to come into someone else's group and make demands. There have always been tons of people that do this, whether or not they are 'right' just depends upon the individual and the situation. However, this type of player is best dealt with by ignoring.
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Feb 09, 2010, 07:36 PM // 19:36
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#146
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Reactive Hexing Sucks
Guild: [Thay]
Profession: N/
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Minion is right, you are wrong. If someone is right, he's right to make demands on those who are wrong. If the people who are wrong won't listen and kick him for it, he's better off anyway.
There's nothing more valuable an E can do in the situation Minion pointed out that ER/Infuse. If there are two monks, then one of them can go party heal, while the other can smite. Most monks seem to like to smite!
I've played enough with "experienced" players who, when faced with an area they do not normally attempt and thus do not have a farming/SC build for, throw some retarded Wiki shit together, not attempting to synergize anything, and get wiped in minutes. The kind of people who won't switch his R/D to R/W SY! because they think the scythe is "cool", or who won't run Hundred Blades despite you sucking up to them with a Mark, because that is "lame". The E/Mo SF "nuker" who to this day can't believe that his elite spell doesn't do 100 damage and refuse to bring even the slightest bit of utility on his bar, except a Meteor Shower that he won't bring the Glyph for. The super-entitled monk who go "I'm a monk... you need me not to die" as an excuse to bring the HB build they haven't changed in 3 years and go camp, half asleep in the backline, then whining on the "tank" if people die.
Our groups don't fail.
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Feb 09, 2010, 08:12 PM // 20:12
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#147
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Desert Nomad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Dr
Its worse form to come into someone else's group and make demands. There have always been tons of people that do this, whether or not they are 'right' just depends upon the individual and the situation. However, this type of player is best dealt with by ignoring.
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This is true.
If you are forming a group you can make demands. The other people have then the option to comply or leave.
If you are joining a group you don't make demands. If you don't like what is going on you leave.
It is very simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
Minion is right, you are wrong. If someone is right, he's right to make demands on those who are wrong. If the people who are wrong won't listen and kick him for it, he's better off anyway.
There's nothing more valuable an E can do in the situation Minion pointed out that ER/Infuse. If there are two monks, then one of them can go party heal, while the other can smite. Most monks seem to like to smite!
I've played enough with "experienced" players who, when faced with an area they do not normally attempt and thus do not have a farming/SC build for, throw some retarded Wiki shit together, not attempting to synergize anything, and get wiped in minutes. The kind of people who won't switch his R/D to R/W SY! because they think the scythe is "cool", or who won't run Hundred Blades despite you sucking up to them with a Mark, because that is "lame". The E/Mo SF "nuker" who to this day can't believe that his elite spell doesn't do 100 damage and refuse to bring even the slightest bit of utility on his bar, except a Meteor Shower that he won't bring the Glyph for. The super-entitled monk who go "I'm a monk... you need me not to die" as an excuse to bring the HB build they haven't changed in 3 years and go camp, half asleep in the backline, then whining on the "tank" if people die.
Our groups don't fail.
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That is all very good except when you take to the other extreme.
When you are doing some stupid shit HM dungeon and people still pick at some guy using earthshaker because there is GDW available - as if Earthshaker isn't powerful enough.
One thing is requiring the most powerful available builds to do the toughest areas, other is to do the same in EVERY AREA!
PvE isn't a competition. Imbagons, Order Necros, ER eles are very powerful but not that challenging to play and/or fun for some people.
The same you would say about Shadow Form.
I like how people bash Shadow Form (and I do so too) but then "how if your ele isn't running ER E/Mo you suck" as if having infinite energy while spamming infuse and having PB on half of your party is BALANCED!
You want utmost efficiency at the cost of FUN you go play PvP.
At a minimum you can't bash other people for not wanting to use the utmost efficient builds in PvE.
And before someone come with the rhetorical of mending warriors, I'll say "You can play mending warriors if you want - just don't expect to do all the stuff in the game or expect me to accept you in my teams". Someone will say to those ER healers "you can play ER E/Mo if you want - just don't expect to finish DoA HM in 1 hour or finish UW HM in 30 minutes and don't expect me to accept you in my team".
Fun can't be dissociated from PvE - and there are different types of fun.
Last edited by _Nihilist_; Feb 12, 2010 at 02:28 AM // 02:28..
Reason: merged double post
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Feb 09, 2010, 08:39 PM // 20:39
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#148
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Furnace Stoker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Dr
Its worse form to come into someone else's group and make demands. There have always been tons of people that do this, whether or not they are 'right' just depends upon the individual and the situation. However, this type of player is best dealt with by ignoring.
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There are many people who join a PUG and really want it to succeed no matter what. That is why they use cons or even kick people out of the team if they dont conform to their build standard.
As for me, when I PUG that means I have the time to fail the mission. This means I dont need to force people out if they dont listen to me, we just fail and I still find it fun to see their reaction later on.
PUGs are definitely not the fastest or safest way to ensure the success of a mission anyway so why incur bad feelings on yourself and on others by forcing builds when they have already said no. I save myself all that trouble by recognizing that and accept that is the way PUGs are. If I dont like it, I have my alternatives.
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Feb 09, 2010, 09:31 PM // 21:31
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#149
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Reactive Hexing Sucks
Guild: [Thay]
Profession: N/
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In a real situation, nobody that's got any form of manners are going to come into a PUG making rigorous demands on everyone. What a reasonable person will do is suggest improvements, asking them if they can change this skill for that skill, or if they want to do another job.
In actuality, the people who actually care about constructing the optimal builds are the ones that are flexible, and the retards that are stuck in ancient times are rigorous. If you join as an E running anything but a nuker (or possibly an OF tank; those have been around for long enough now) will get kicked. The same, in different flavors, is true for all professions. Some of them won't even be able to find a group because the PUG wonders "wtf do we need a mesmer for".
We can field Paragons with swords, Necromancer SY!-bots, Dervish Orders, Elementalist Order/Warder/Ethers, Ritualist weapon spellers, Mesmer signet/SoH-spammers...
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Feb 09, 2010, 10:35 PM // 22:35
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#150
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Desert Nomad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
In a real situation, nobody that's got any form of manners are going to come into a PUG making rigorous demands on everyone. What a reasonable person will do is suggest improvements, asking them if they can change this skill for that skill, or if they want to do another job.
In actuality, the people who actually care about constructing the optimal builds are the ones that are flexible, and the retards that are stuck in ancient times are rigorous. If you join as an E running anything but a nuker (or possibly an OF tank; those have been around for long enough now) will get kicked. The same, in different flavors, is true for all professions. Some of them won't even be able to find a group because the PUG wonders "wtf do we need a mesmer for".
We can field Paragons with swords, Necromancer SY!-bots, Dervish Orders, Elementalist Order/Warder/Ethers, Ritualist weapon spellers, Mesmer signet/SoH-spammers...
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I've played a few times with thay people, although not with you, just for you to know.
Again, what you guys run isn't exactly a PuG - it is to pick up players to field a physcway - so basically 100b warriors, Moebius Sins, Scythe Sins, Imbagon, Dervs, supported by 2 E/Mo, and then maybe Ap-MoP or Orders and a guy or another.
Outside using a SF to setup for some kind of spike, manly or caster based, it is one of the best builds, but if you bring efficiency as the way to justify refusing taking an Earthshaker build (and no wasn't me using earthshaker) or a MB (or some other ele using ele skills and some support ward/battlestandards/PvE skills, etc) then you should be strictly running SF based spikes or Smiting/600 whatever.
You don't do that - so that means it is playing according to a personal philosophy.
There are several builds, that while not being the utmost efficient, can and will finish most areas in the game with very few problems or without taking much more time. An hybrid monk, although losing to E/Mo, can and will finish most of the areas in the game, for example, and it won't take much more time. It will of course be more challenging for the team and for the player playing monk.
Reading as I've read in these forums (not from you), that WoH hybrid monk is a stupid/weak build just because ER E/Mo exist... and I've noticed you didn't include a monk on the characters you field.
If ER gets the nerf shaft we will have to rely on those monks again - and a good monk is hard to find because it requires skill since it can't spam.
Last edited by Improvavel; Feb 09, 2010 at 10:48 PM // 22:48..
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Feb 09, 2010, 11:32 PM // 23:32
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#151
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Oct 2009
Profession: E/A
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Hi There.
- I am a relatively new player (few months now) and really enjoy the game.
- I liked the initial post and the intention. Thx for the tips.
- It’s sad that the discussions turns into “what build is best/ better” etc
I Pug the z miss (HM) I do and my experience is surprisingly good. Thx to all the good guys out there. All z miss I did so far, could be completed even with not-perfect builds. The “common sense” from the initial post + half decent communication seems to be far more important than perfect builds. My exp is that missions fail when ppl leave, go afk, DC ...
I run a pretty “HM unfriendly” Searing Flames Fire Nuke/ Burning build (fire skills only, Gl Less Eng, 2 enchantments + Intensity, 2 weapon sets: enchanting/ fight). And yes all my armor is dyed red ;-) I might change the build later when I have access to more PvE skills. However, that’s what I have for now and I also like the “role play aspect” of it. I am just not a fan of the Necro “look and feel”, but hey, that’s just me … and while Im on it, the Ele dance is pathetic.
Normally I can find a group within a few minutes. In yesterdays z miss “Thirsty River” we had 2 ppl (out of 6 I think) running “fire/ burn builds” (no EotN skills) and the miss still went through with no probs.
Also agree with this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
In a real situation, nobody that's got any form of manners are going to come into a PUG making rigorous demands on everyone. What a reasonable person will do is suggest improvements, asking them if they can change this skill for that skill, or if they want to do another job.
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Feb 10, 2010, 01:09 AM // 01:09
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#152
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Desert Nomad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solar AUS
Hi There.
- I am a relatively new player (few months now) and really enjoy the game.
- I liked the initial post and the intention. Thx for the tips.
- It’s sad that the discussions turns into “what build is best/ better” etc
I Pug the z miss (HM) I do and my experience is surprisingly good. Thx to all the good guys out there. All z miss I did so far, could be completed even with not-perfect builds. The “common sense” from the initial post + half decent communication seems to be far more important than perfect builds. My exp is that missions fail when ppl leave, go afk, DC ...
I run a pretty “HM unfriendly” Searing Flames Fire Nuke/ Burning build (fire skills only, Gl Less Eng, 2 enchantments + Intensity, 2 weapon sets: enchanting/ fight). And yes all my armor is dyed red ;-) I might change the build later when I have access to more PvE skills. However, that’s what I have for now and I also like the “role play aspect” of it. I am just not a fan of the Necro “look and feel”, but hey, that’s just me … and while Im on it, the Ele dance is pathetic.
Normally I can find a group within a few minutes. In yesterdays z miss “Thirsty River” we had 2 ppl (out of 6 I think) running “fire/ burn builds” (no EotN skills) and the miss still went through with no probs.
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You will have to understand that many of the posters here play for 3+ years, some since the beta and one of the few things left is to build the most efficient builds.
Additionally PvE is not only easy but a couple of good players using good builds can mask most of the weakness of bad/inexperienced players.
Add a couple of E/Mo (or even plain good monks) an Imbagon and/or a warrior that know what they are doing and you can finish pretty much every area of this game running X Searing Flame nukers with 5 offensive skills and Intensity on the remaining spots
But that doesn't mean there aren't more powerful builds for Eles, even while running/playing a traditional Elementalist role.
For example, you could run a couple of earth wards in a fire build or some other support skills (once you get pve only skills it will most be these) making your character more of a team player.
Lets take your SF dude - which is quite an energy consuming skill.
Get Mind Blast that is quite a good energy engine. Pair it with Rodgorts Invocation and Liquid Flame, reasonable skills that will damage on par of SF. Add Meteor for some knockdown. Add There is Nothing to Fear (sunspear paragon skill) for some party heal and some damage reduction for a few seconds. Fire Attunement. Signet of return or some rez signet/sunspear signet. And you still have an optional for something like a heat or whatever.
The above build (with no GWEN pve skills), that is still inefficient compared to some stuff you can do these days, will provide some offense (that won't be that great against some HM targets) and provide some utility/party support, that is probably quite more interesting to a party than whatever SF nuker build some players run.
Actually what is important in here isn't the skills/builds but how players approach their builds - Elementalist and most other mid line casters SHOULD provide both OFFENSIVE presence and DEFENSIVE presence.
That is what most players fail to do/understand - they only want to play a uni-dimensional role, when it is doing more than one thing is better due to the game mechanics.
- Frontliners need offense and if they can provide disruption (interrupts, knocks, snares like they should Grasping Earth) or defense (shouts like SY!);
- Midliners need offense and defense - some damage skills, rezzes, some defense skills like wards, snares, disruption, hex/condition removal if they can afford it, etc;
- Backliners should provide heal and protection;
- There are also supporters like Orders/Minion masters/Spirit Spammers characters that should try to fit some of those midliner roles alongside their main role.
If your builds follow the above guidelines, you will be able to create decent builds regardless of any changes that may happen to skills - then it is just a question of choosing the best skills or the skills that are just ok and you like.
Last edited by Improvavel; Feb 10, 2010 at 01:14 AM // 01:14..
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Feb 10, 2010, 04:15 AM // 04:15
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#153
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Guest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
In a real situation, nobody that's got any form of manners are going to come into a PUG making rigorous demands on everyone. What a reasonable person will do is suggest improvements, asking them if they can change this skill for that skill, or if they want to do another job.
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Well then I got news for you. I just logged off from some pve, pugging uw with an abysmal group. I knew it would fail, but like mentioned earlier I'm in it for the fails&fun. Team setup: defy pain tank, shadowformnoob, noobranger, 2 spiritguys, 2 monks and me with a sin using daggers(gasp!).
Healer dc's early on and the other monk is running balths spirit, vital blessing and some other useless bonds, blood ritual and no heals. Still we make it till the ice king-quest where we wipe. A few leavers and the french(frenchies are so ftw..) leader accepts everything we can get. One being a pro shadowform guy. This guy immediately gets his knickers in a knot over the fact that I'm an a/w, surely that's a weird shadowform sin? After pinging my build he calls for a vote to have me kicked, which I am.
Morale of the story is run a wikibuild, ask for a vote for someone else on the team to get kicked so you appear pro or just ping a wikibuild when asked and load whatever else you want to mess around with.
Now I know that pug won't "succeed" despite their efforts to maximize the team setup but it bothers me that I'm not there to watch the fail when it happens. The higher your goals, the higher your fall.
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Feb 10, 2010, 04:25 AM // 04:25
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#154
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Reactive Hexing Sucks
Guild: [Thay]
Profession: N/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel
Reading as I've read in these forums (not from you), that WoH hybrid monk is a stupid/weak build just because ER E/Mo exist... and I've noticed you didn't include a monk on the characters you field.
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There are several nice monk builds. WoH hybrid works just fine if you find a guy that actually knows how to use it. You're right, it takes more skill than ER/Prot to be really effective, and it's more of a "toolbox" build than ER, which is robust, limited and overpowered. Also, you should customize it for maximum PvE efficiency. I can't believe how many Mo/E who haven't realized what a wonderful skill Air of Superiority is.
ER won't get nerfed. It gets enough flack from bad players to ensure Arenanet never gets to it.
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Feb 10, 2010, 10:19 AM // 10:19
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#155
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Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
Location: East Anglia, UK
Guild: Order of [Thay]
Profession: N/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard
The higher your goals, the higher your fall.
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Wise words, but actually it's more like "the higher your goals, the more you'll try."
Also a proverb to remember is "The chain is only as strong as the weakest link"
Now, try and decipher that, because it's basically what's being said in the most generic terms.
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Feb 10, 2010, 02:55 PM // 14:55
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#156
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Guest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion
Wise words, but actually it's more like "the higher your goals, the more you'll try."
Also a proverb to remember is "The chain is only as strong as the weakest link"
Now, try and decipher that, because it's basically what's being said in the most generic terms.
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So what you're saying is that having the right build(shadowform) far outshines having a good player with a bad build(daggers)? And also that the main criteria upon which to judge pugs are how effective they are reaching their goals?
With a mindset as narrow as that there's no wonder why pugging has become so unpopular.
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Feb 10, 2010, 03:14 PM // 15:14
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#157
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Guild: [Thay]
Profession: R/Mo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion
I actually got kicked from a guild because I wanted to bring my ER ele on a vanquish with this guild....
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And now we have Thay. That was probably the smartest thing your former guild ever did. Yay for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard
Well then I got news for you. I just logged off from some pve, pugging uw with an abysmal group. I knew it would fail, but like mentioned earlier I'm in it for the fails&fun. Team setup: defy pain tank, shadowformnoob, noobranger, 2 spiritguys, 2 monks and me with a sin using daggers(gasp!).
Healer dc's early on and the other monk is running balths spirit, vital blessing and some other useless bonds, blood ritual and no heals. Still we make it till the ice king-quest where we wipe. A few leavers and the french(frenchies are so ftw..) leader accepts everything we can get. One being a pro shadowform guy. This guy immediately gets his knickers in a knot over the fact that I'm an a/w, surely that's a weird shadowform sin? After pinging my build he calls for a vote to have me kicked, which I am.
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So you joined a fail group. It's better to spend more time setting up than in the dungeon/UW/FOW. Thay Pugs with minion take forever and ever but we smash the dungeons and very often, the set up takes longer than the dungeon itself. We don't need to run everything the very best. I run Imbagon when Minions wants a 100lolz or something but we still make it through quickly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard
Morale of the story is run a wikibuild, ask for a vote for someone else on the team to get kicked so you appear pro or just ping a wikibuild when asked and load whatever else you want to mess around with.
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The real moral of the story is not join pugs that will fail. There will definitely be other teams and unless you want to spend a good amount of time in a team thats not fun, just wait a little or do something else until the area has more open minded people.
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Feb 10, 2010, 04:18 PM // 16:18
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#158
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Furnace Stoker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSasori
The real moral of the story is not join pugs that will fail. There will definitely be other teams and unless you want to spend a good amount of time in a team thats not fun, just wait a little or do something else until the area has more open minded people.
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The moral of the story is, if you don't want to fail then don't join a pug.
If you have a good guild/alliance to back you up or you have good heroes, you can probably clear it faster and safer. The problem with random PUGs is, you are taking a chance, even if the guy flashes a good wiki build in town, there is still no guarantee that he would not DC, go afk, go leeroy, or leave in the middle of the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HigherMinion
Also a proverb to remember is "The chain is only as strong as the weakest link"
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That only applies if the links of the chain are all equal. That is not the case with a team setup where some roles are more important than others.
If you have setup the KEY positions in your team with trustworthy guild/alliance members, and gave the lesser roles to random pugs, then you have already reduced the risk of your team failing significantly. But that is not a typical pug.
Last edited by Daesu; Feb 10, 2010 at 04:27 PM // 16:27..
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Feb 10, 2010, 04:51 PM // 16:51
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#159
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Apr 2006
Guild: [DVDF] Gp
Profession: Me/A
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Quote:
ping a wikibuild when asked and load whatever else you want to mess around with.
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Thats actually worse than just not knowing your bar is bad....ive restarted a few zones with pugs due to some tool doin that...
monk pings crap bar* (mending bonder is win yah?)
monk is asked to change bar
monk changes and pings a solid enough woh bar
zone starts
monk is running his crap bar in zone
team resigns
monk gets kicked
monk swears at team cos he is better and has been monking since beta
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Feb 10, 2010, 11:28 PM // 23:28
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#160
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Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
Location: East Anglia, UK
Guild: Order of [Thay]
Profession: N/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu
The moral of the story is, if you don't want to fail then don't join a pug.
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After this long-winded discussion, you are still adamant that PUGs cannot succeed? If anyone is the narrow-minded one here, it is you. And, er, the guy that called me narrow-minded
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